Yesterday it was a privilege to join with the Abingdon Muslims during Maghrib prayers (salah) at 19:50.
The Abingdon Muslims regularly meet for communal prayers at the Guildhall on a Friday, and have done for some time. But recently they have been meeting in a small room, kindly shared for free by a local business owner in East St Helen Street on Saturday and Sunday.
I gather Muslims pray 5 times a day, these prayers are compulsory for all adult men & women on a timetable that changes depending on the sunrise and sunset.
Today I followed their prayer timetable and took pictures at each prayer time:
Sunrise : 6:22, Zuhr : 13:15, Asr : 17:45, Maghrib : 19:51, Isha : 21:30.
Regular prayer keeps Muslims mindful of Allah (God) throughout the day and praying in congregation develops community spirit and strengthens relationships.
It is a pity that Muslims are not so welcoming to Christians. One person was killed and several injured in Egypt when Muslims stoned Christians coming out of a church after a funeral. It is a very intollerant religion.
As usual it is the extremists that make the headlines….that is a very sweeping generalisation Janet.
Six times a day? that’s commitment! Great photos too
islam is an extremist religion.
that’s not commitment rob…it’s called fanaticism.
At one time Christianity was very intollerant. We have moved on from then. We can even laugh at films like the Life of Brian and discuss Christianity without being accused of blasphemy. However, Islam has not moved on. A poor mentally retarded girl was sentenced to stoning for blasphemy by muslims and fatwas issued for journalists or free thinkers who discuss Islam sensibly.
islam cannot ‘move on’…the 6th century nature of it’s tenets is a central part of the ‘religion’ itself. there will be no reformation of islam.
Islam is NOT an extremist religion. Anyone who makes a judgement like that based on the actions of extremists themselves, clearly aren’t very intelligent. That’s like me looking at the Westboro Baptist Church and saying Christianity is an extremist religion. Use a bit of common sense and don’t be taken in by sensationalism. The VAST majority of muslims would look at the behaviour of fanatics and denounce it.
Sad that blogs are so often used by nasty, unhappy people to snarl about things they know little about. I am not a Muslim, but my personal experience of Muslims who meet in Abingdon has been that they are friendly, peace loving citizens, who have gone out of their way to be generous and caring in their relationships with all sections of the community. Let us build on the positive we know rather than peddling the poison of damaging generalisations.
Vik – i’m basing that comment on the quran and the teachings and actions of islams ‘prophet’ mohammed along with the behaviour of muslim ruled countries….not the actions of individual muslims (with whom i have no issue). educate yourself rather than following the herd and you may learn something. google ‘Aisha bint Abu Bakr’ and read about the morals of the man that muslims worship…
Tony i’m sure the vast majority of germans who were members of the nazi party weren’t actually frothing at the mouth anti-semites and most were probably perfectly pleasent individuals….but the fact remains that the idealology was foul. the same applies here. oppression of women…oppression of gays…anti-democratic values…in what world is islam compatible with liberalised western culture?
Here here Tony – if people would like to find out more about the Muslim community in Abingdob first hand rather than jumping to conclusions they have recently launched a website to help promote understanding of tgeir faith and activities.
http://Www.abingdonmuslims.com
Janet – Christianity has much extremism and questionable practice too, which I won’t insult your intelligence by listing off, but I think perhaps a little tolerance is in order.
*rolls eyes*
Ian, I have already stated that Christianity has been very intollerant and some people take it to the extreme. However, we are free to mention the intollerance of other religions too. In this country we can are free to have debate. Not so in some muslim countries.
Tolerance?
‘Muslims declare victory in fight over ‘anti-Islamic’ Lego’
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-racist-menace-muslims-declare-victory-in-fight-over-antiislamic-lego-8555610.html
Jedis > Muslims.
Janet (you’re not related to me are you?) – don’t fall into the trap of comparing islam and christianity…that isn’t the issue…islam is a threat to liberal democracy and the hard fought gains won in the areas of sexual liberation, sexual equality, womens rights and tolerance. your point regarding the lack of freedom of speech in all muslim countries is of course correct…unfortunately cultural sensitivity only appears to apply in one direction.
Janet – I don’t disagree with right to debate the issue of religious views in any way. I just don’t think linking religious fanaticism in other places to that practiced by the Abingdon Muslims is very helpful.
I personally disagree with many things written in the bible, many things espoused by the Christian churches and many things espoused by the Islamic faiths. However my experience has been that the overwhelming majority of ‘people of faith’ I have encountered have been good. Moral individuals.
I work with a lot of people in Malaysia for example which is a Muslim country. The Muslims I know there would have no more truck with Islamic fundamentalism than you or I. There is also no noticeable distinction in education between the sexes.
iain i agree that people of faith are usually good intentioned.
your comments regarding malaysia are, however, a little disingenuous – where does ‘normal’ islam stop and ‘fundamentalism’ begin?
‘Rise of strict Islam exposes tensions in Malaysia:
Muslim women without headscarves are a common sight on the streets of the Malaysian capital, Kuala Lumpur.
But engaging them in a discussion about the hijab is difficult.
Norhayati Kaprawi is a Malaysian activist whose recent documentary Aku Siapa (Who Am I) deals with the issue of how women in Malaysia should dress. She found some women unwilling to show their faces in her film – not on religious grounds, but because they feared reprisals.
This is a damning reflection on Malaysia’s Muslim society, says Ms Norhayati.
“It’s full of fear. If you don’t follow the mainstream you will be lynched.”‘
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-radio-and-tv-14649841
I think there’s a gradation in all belief systems. We could argue that we saw similar levels of secular extremism in France recently in regard to the way it was vilifying individuals who wanted to wear crosses or veils to school, resulting in some fairly hostile protests against small children.
To be clear, my argument isn’t that Islam is perfect, it’s just we shouldn’t charicature (maybe an unfortunate choice of words 🙂 ) religions or tar all (or even most) followers of a religion with the same brush
I read a fascinating book a year or so ago called “Love in a Headscarf” – an autobiographical account by a youngish feminist British Muslim – easy to read and cast a new light on the stereotypes and prejudices we hear so much. I would recommend it to everyone who feels disposed to comment on these issues.
Janet you’re deluded if you think Christianity is no longer an intolerant religion
I would like to say well done to the business owner in East St Helen’s Street for accommodating the Abingdon Muslims’ prayer sessions. The sooner we can all stop being suspicious of each other and make friends, the better. And thanks Abingdon blog for sharing the news and the lovely pictures.
In de Berniere’s Birds without Wings, he imagines Jesus and Mohammed looking down on the village in his story and saying “they haven’t heard a word I’ve said”.
Oh dear DKR87.
You said that you’re basing your statement “islam is an extremist religion” on “the quran and the teachings and actions of islams ‘prophet’ mohammed along with the behaviour of muslim ruled countries”.
Then later on you post a non-story article on a fringe group (the Turkish Cultural Association of Austria) about their aversion to Star Wars themed lego to make your point again.
I quote from my earlier post: “Use a bit of common sense and don’t be taken in by sensationalism.”
Sadly, I fear, such advice will go unheeded. But worry not. The rest of us will carry the spirit of tolerance and diversity forward on your behalf.
As far as I’m concerned all religion stinks!! Its the cause of so much hatred and suffering on this planet. Its so sad that just a difference in belief can make someone want to kill another person.
religious fundamentalists – wether muslim or christian, are the only ones that put their money where their mouth is and truly follow the rules of their religious book.
i know loads of people who claim to be christian but only follow the bits that suit them – they say things like ‘ i dont need to go to church to be a christian’.
“…have you ever found God in church? I never did. I just found a bunch of folks hoping for him to show. Any God I ever felt in church I brought in with me. And I think all the other folks did too. They come to church to share God, not find God.”
― Alice Walker, The Color Purple
People talk about Islam a lot but know very little about it – to understand it you need to know about the principle of Taqqiya – http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm
– it’s really very interesting
nice post jack russell…unfortunately most people have made up their mind already and won’t approach this issue with an open mind…..you have the racists and bigots on one side…and well meaning fools on the other…any actual informed discourse is lost in the gap between them as both sides pigeonhole you as soon as you express an opinion.
@ Vik99 – no comment on ‘Aisha bint Abu Bakr’ then i see? was muhammad himself on the fringes of islam??
‘As far as I’m concerned all religion stinks!! Its the cause of so much hatred and suffering on this planet. Its so sad that just a difference in belief can make someone want to kill another person.’
Interesting viewpoint but I’m not aware of any major religion condoning murder. Reacquaint yourself with the 10 commandments for an insight on to two major religions.
Dkr87 – I think you’re confusing willingness to engage in debate and willingness to agree with the view you expressed.
I for one enjoy a good debate about belief, religion, god etc. the problem I have with your view is that you have categorised a faith group with over a billion followers as being homogenous. I don’t agree that this is the case.
Iain…i’m not condemning or even commenting on the followers themselves…only the idealology…it isn’t myself who is getting confused between the followers and the idealology.
we can talk about faith, god, spirituality all you like…there’s nothing i enjoy more than comparative religion…but as regards Islam and it’s central base fundamental belief system…well as Madame Blavatsky herself said ‘there is no religion higher than truth’…and the truth is that as a belief system Islam holds women as lower than men and homosexuals as deserving of death…’values’ which i as a slightly left of centre 21st century liberal democrat (small l & d!) find incompatible with our established way of life.
And on that point I can agree with you – I may have taken more specifically what you meant by extremist. I am saddened by the continued failure of the two main branches of the Christian church to effectively embrace the equality of women within the church and the continued view that homosexuality and contraception are sins.
indeed Iain…though the difference as i see it here is that there exists a degree of ambiguity and the bible / religious teachings of the christians are able to be interpreted in various ways without detracting from the spiritual aspect itself…giving hope that someday the ignorance and misogyny will be fully overcome….with Islam there isn’t that ambiguity…indeed the quran exists as a single document…there aren’t the myriad versions of it that there are of the bible….the difference between islamic and christian fundamentalists is that the islamic one’s have a point….the quran is clear that it is the unadulterated word of g_d and there appears little room for earthly interpretation.
coming round kinda full circle now – the communal prayer meeting referred to above – was this truly communal in the sense that both men and women were integrated during prayers? if not do you not find that insulting to women?
as much as i respect those of a religious bent (tho i follow none myself) and as much as i would like to avoid offence i do believe that such nonsenical bigotry as the seperation of the sexes needs to be tackled head on.
Backstreeter, those are beautiful photos. Prayer is a beautiful thing and calms the soul and showing the arc of the day like this complements the prayer times perfectly.
This blog shares events and activities of many groups in Abingdon and it is right to include church groups and prayer groups in this.
As ever, some people choose this place as a forum for airing grievances, not with anyone in particular but by making sweeping generalisations. To support each other we also need to tolerate the differences between as and by listening to others, better understand their lives.
Poor Rachel. I too like beauty and harmony but we cannot ignore the reality of the world. I was at Glasgow Airport meeting my son and grandchildren shortly before two Muslims drove a vehicle into the airport hoping the resulting fireball would kill as many women and children as possible. This brings home reality pretty firmly. This is not airing a grievance but stating a fact that we cannot ignore and are free to discuss. I am sure that most muslims abhore extremism.
DKR87 – re. Aisha bint Abu Bakr – what’s your point?
vik99 – what’s your opinion of a man who enters into a sexual relationship with a 9yr old pre-pubescent girl as Muhammad did with Aisha?
rachel…i applaud your sentiments but how do you, as a woman, feel knowing that muslim prayer groups are segregated between the sexes? do you believe that women are inferior to men as Islam promotes? do you believe that men, generally, are such sex maniacs that women need to wear full shapeless blankets over themselves to prevent sexual arousal? do you believe that this should be enforced?
rachel i DO understand the issues….that’s why i stand for the oppressed over the oppressor whoever that may be….
Have to agree with the other Rachel.
Would also like to add that even if you don’t understand or agree with other people’s beliefs that you should respect them.
I’m from a Catholic background but that doesn’t make me a supporter of the IRA does it? I have several good friends who are Muslim and they face daily discrimination because with most of them you can tell their faith from looking at them. All of them choose to wear a headscarf, they have not been forces by their husbands or their community.
All the more reason to have interfaith groups so as to increase communication between members of a community.
i respect everyones beliefs where those beliefs don’t impact upon others rights to live a life free from discrimination and prejudice.
The question is not how we treat muslims but what does Islam say about how they must treat us? Interfaith marriages are banned under Islam. I do not understand honour killings as it is always women and girls that are killed never men. Muslims do not usually speak about how they respect other religious beliefs.
rachel – yao – you say your friends face daily discrimination because they choose to wear headscarves…yet by wearing their headscarves they are stating a wish to be indentified as belivers in Islam…an idealology that some find oppressive.
if i were a believer in german national socialism and so chose to wear a swastika and people reacted in a less than welcoming fashion towards me because of it would you i was being discriminated against?
DKR87 – are you being intentionally dim?
Aisha was indeed 9 when she married Muhammed IN THE YEAR 600. Is your point that followers of Islam thusly recognise paedophilia as a core belief?
The Qur’an – like the majority of religious texts – is interpretive. God says some pretty hardcore things in the Bible but you wouldn’t isolate them as examples of how Christianity is a wicked faith? Why with Islam?
Are you scared? Fearful? Do you have any Muslim friends? Maybe you could seek some out and talk to them. I’d be happy to introduce you.
I’m genuinely puzzled why you seem to be all hot under the collar about Islam. Your frothing at the mouth comes across as the worst kind of tabloid indignation.
ps. Aisha, for the record, grew up to be greatly admired by her husband and the followers of Islam – to the point where she was a significant political voice in the faith. Remind me what the role of women was in Christianity in 600AD again? My point is not that one faith is better than the other, it’s that idiots will be idiots regardless of what God they believe in, and it’s EXACTLY the same with kind, tolerant and gentle human beings too.
Good response, Vik99. Eboo Patel in his book, Sacred Ground, says that any groups, whether of different ethnic identity, religion, or whatever, are affected by three things: attitudes, relationships, and knowledge. This is true no matter whose side you look at it from.
Attitudes can be changed depending on what knowledge or lack of people have, and by developing relationships with those who are different.
I’m not in Abingdon right now. But when I return I’m going to approach a former mayor and others interested in creating contexts where Muslims and non-Muslims can get to know one another as fellow human beings.
Having taught World Religions I will look for others to work with me on bringing good knowledge to tensions and misunderstandings that exist for lack of that knowledge.
Well, we are mainly Buddhists here at Chaba Thai but we would willingly let them in to pray. They’d have to try some of our tasty Thai food afterwards though! Doubtful if its Halal :'(
It would be great to get acquainted with you as Buddhists and as persons as well as trying your pad thai! See you when we get back from California where we enjoyed the food at the Thai Garden.
http://www.auburnthai.com/
Are you Theravada?
vik99 – muslims worship a ‘man’ who had sex with a 9yr old girl (she ‘married’ him when she was 6….it was 3 years before the marriage was ‘consumated’)
i don’t care if that was 6 days or 6 weeks or 600 years ago…it’s wrong….very very wrong.
you don’t seem to see anything inherently wrong in sexual relationships between children and adults??
having worked around the world and with actual experience of muslims countries i know plenty of muslims…as human beings i fully respect them…but if any discussion of this sort came up then i would tell them MY point of view as regards their ‘prophet’..
as for christians – this thread is about islam. what difference does it make if another religion says bad things?? doesn’t exonerate or lessen anything else. but if you must please show me the bit where jesus has a thing for pre-pubescent little girls like muhammad did.,,,
‘Is your point that followers of Islam thusly recognise paedophilia as a core belief? ‘
YES!! well done. the man they venerate above all others was a paedophile….you finally got it. bravo! have you been following the case in oxford regarding the sex-grooming gang targetting very young girls? have you noticed what religion those men follow?? is that simply coincidence?
last thing vik99 – are you a female? if so please go speak to other females as out of respect for Islam i’ll take it as read that my opinion, as a man, holds more weight than yours.
DKR87, you know so little about Islam, MUSLIMS DO NOT WORSHIP ANY MAN. I think you have no other interest in life except BLOG. No doubt you will reply to this blog as well, but I will not waste my time anymore on this subject.