The inspector looking into the Vale of White Horse development Plan to 2031 has said that, subject to some modifications, he is likely to find that the plan is sound and can be adopted. The only modification that may effect Abingdon is ‘Whilst the inspector is happy that there are exceptional circumstances to amend the green belt in four areas where the council is proposing housing allocations.He is not satisfied with other proposed changes to the green belt where no housing is proposed and has stated there are not exceptional circumstances to justify them.’
So it looks like the 1000+ new houses to the North of Abingdon will be allowed. I am not so sure about the Park and Ride for 1600 cars, and ancillary development at Lodge Hill. The full press release is available under the title ‘Great news for the Vale’s Local Plan’
Who could have guessed that.
Oh well, maybe if we Brexit and the predictions of doom and gloom come true, the developers won’t want to build there anyway..
yeah right…
That is a shocking, thought -provoking image.
Never fear Lyle. David Cameron has approved Turkey entering the EU. The Government’s plans to accelerate visa-free travel and EU membership for Turkey have been revealed. “David Cameron said he wants to ‘pave the road from Ankara’. We will soon have thousands of Turkish Immigrants to build houses for.
It would have been better to place a steaming great turd on top of the White Horse as metaphorically that is what the VoWHDC & OCC is doing to us each and every day.
That’s funny because I thought he said
“no prospect of Turkey joining the EU in decades.”
“They applied in 1987, they have to complete 35 chapters, one has been completed so far,”
“Turkey’s not going to join the EU anytime soon – every country, every parliament has a veto.”
In an interview with Sky a week or so ago.
How can he ‘approve’ Turkey joining the EU if every member state has a vote and they are only one thirtyfifth (that’s less than 3%) towards meeting the minimum criteria for being even considered for membership?
Please could they wait a week before they decide whether to build the houses?
If we leave the Eeeewwwwww then 1000s and 1000s of jobs will be instantly lost. All Eeeewwwwww funded projects will cease or go elsewhere and everyone who is working here legally from the Eeeewwwwww will be frogmarched to Dover… Or so make out the remainians…. So we won’t need the houses.
Worth waiting a week, surely?
The U-turn was revealed by the pro-EU Financial Times – which accused the Government of ‘diplomatic acrobatics’. One eurozone diplomat was reported saying of Britain: ‘It is like they are scared of their own shadow.’ I am ashamed of the lily livered diplomats we have negotiating for Britain. No wonder we lost all our fishery quotas. What happened to the British backbone?
leave the E U and all those European funded jobs at Oxford Uni , Brookes, Jett at Culham, the European school, the European Space site at Harwell etc I assume will all go so we can keep the nice field for car boots sales
You are right Mary. No EU…. No funding for anything, ever again. Ever.
And forget car out sales…. with the collapse of all car manufacturing in all of the UK for ever and everyone having no job…. there’ll be no car boots to sell from!
And as for that field…. with no farmers left as they can’t exist without the Eeeewwwwww … it’ll be no good for a boot sale anyway.
So Janet, even though you knew Cameron now had a different opinion on Turkey you chose to ignore that and go with the one that suits your political agenda?
Also in the Sky interview he was merely stating facts.
Turkey have been trying since ’87 to join but have only fulfilled 1 of the 35 requirements. That’s like trying to save £1 since 1987 and only having less than 3p by the way. -Fact
Every member state has the right to veto any new member -Fact
Don’t get me wrong, I have little or no respect for Cameron, I will more likely be heard referring to him in less than favourable terms relating to his use of a dead pig than defending him but this time he’s right, quite possibly for all the wrong reasons, but right non the less. We will be worse off if we leave the EU.
… You don’t *know* we’ll be worse off. In your opinion, based on the people you’ve heard or information you’ve sought out you *believe* we’ll be worse off. That’s as sure as you can say….
It works the other way round too of course….
Can we not leave the EU out of this for now, and concentrate on venting our frustration on the Vale and their so called ‘local plan’, that is nothing of the sort.
Or as I like to think of it.. the betrayal of Abingdon.
No Lyle; we can’t.
Why do we need a local plan anyway…? The more the merrier, surely. A local plan would just restrict who can live in The Veil…. Who would want to restrict that!? Why do those restrictors hate everyone else so much and hate what benefits they’d bring!?
Sorry Daniel but I disagree with you. Housing is being built with little disregard for local planning such as access roads and infrastructure. The entrance to the latest development Morland Gardens is regarded by all as deadly dangerous. It is the rape of Abingdon and the compilation of our already dire traffic problems. Developers know that piecemeal development will absolve them of any responsibility for ensuing infrastructure, facilities and traffic.
Janet…. You have me all wrong… You are one of the few people who’s opinion on the plan I’d respect.
Thank you Daniel.
you are welcome Janet.
I think the thing is, it is incompatible to be:
Unhappy with these new homes, and, want to remain in the Eeeewwwww.
I don’t particularly want these new homes, however I am pretty sure I want us out of the Eeeewwww.
There is a link between these two issues.
We’ll see, I guess, how many “innies” don’t actually want these houses….which will be mighty confusing!!
Really Daniel, you’re actually saying that a vote to remain in the EU means that a person forfeits the right to object to a planning application, for any reason, ever?
No…you are 100% incorrect. At no point did I say “that a vote to remain in the EU means that a person forfeits the right to object to a planning application, for any reason, ever”. Are you often this incorrect?
However I did try to conflate two arguments to illustrate:
a) The ludicrousness of some remainian arguments.
and 2) The way the innies like to take an out-urds point and misunderinterpretate it so much on purpose that they confuse people. Or, ideally….when they ask a reasonable and fair question, to totally disregard the answer. (Of course, this no doubt happens on both sides, but I am only “seeing it” from the in-urds).
It is frustrating, when so much is at stake.
Having said that, there are serious parallels between the two issues. Whilst it is possible for intelligent people to hold two opposing views…in this case, I am not sure it makes sense to object to these homes, yet want EU membership.
Regardless of whether this proposed development and Great Western Park in Didcot plus all the other smaller ones are right or wrong where are the jobs going to come from to support all the new households? I also do not see the logic in proposing such large scale plans without having the transport infrastructure in place to handle the extra traffic, do they expect everyone to walk or cycle 20 miles every day, the Chinese must find it most amusing to see an advanced nation’s mobility regressing back to something they’ve just left behind! I wish I had the financial clout to be able to challenge and block this as although I am all for the town growing in a kind of organic way (a bit here, a bit there) I just can’t see the need for such a large
It’s frustrating, when so much is at stake, that the two sides are reduced to shouting at each other from fishing boats on the Thames st Westminster. Two opposing sets of alleged ‘facts’ and outcomes, no hope of seeing any truth, a farcical, media driven, belly-button referendum, full of innies and outies.
Still, those houses… they’ll have a great view, when will they be on the market?
Mart the EU stopped funding the European school years ago ( it’s now the Europa school and as far as I know self funding) and before it folded it was funded on a third basis, being the EU, Bmw and our exchequer, life does goon without the EU.
Yes, it will take many years before turkey could join the EU, that’s not the issue, the issue s as part of the EU’s plan to halt the refugee crisis the EU has pledged to give turkey £3 billion pound and visa free movement throughout the EU to Turks in exchange for turkey taking back and accommodating 2.5 million refugees that are presently either in the EU in camps, en route to. Turkey or already there, we can’t take this lot,
Leave Leave Leave !
Thanks Captainkao2. I would suspect a lot of the pupils at the school are sons and daughters of European scientists, who may be here on EU funded projects, and will have to leave should we exit, hence why I think it would directly affect them
I’m voting in generally as I look at the calibre of those supporting the Exit and they look like a watered down bunch of Donald Trumps, and to me at least , that’s enough to vote the other way. But the debate and arguing is a great
.
Anyway back to the topic with all these new houses and extra council tax income, the flowers will be fantastic in Abingdon town council boxes.
Thanks for the clarification Daniel, but just to be absolutely clear, on the off chance that I might fall into more than one of the categories, exactly what is it that might preclude someone who is both intelligent and wishes to remain in the EU (surely that’s the very definition of a tautology?) from objecting to these particular houses?
Its quite laughable to see people think that whichever way they vote will have any real impact on decisions made either here or in the EU.
Much like the local plan then.
Democracy at its best, what a joke.
What’s a tautology (to save me looking in my dictiobary)?
Mary, you don’t know that those projects will no longer be funded. Why will those people have to leave?
I promise…. I’m not voting ‘out’ because I look up to Boris or Nigel. I have no more respect or trust in them than I do, say, David Cameron, or George Osborne. I’m not basing this really really big decision on personalities. I must be nieve as I didn’t realise people were! Although it’s not the first time people have said as much….
I asked a while ago, but got no feedback. Does anyone know anything of worth about TTIP? From what I understand (*) TTIP is the biggest threat to the NHS. If we stay IN the EU we’ll get signed up to TTIP. On this issue alone some might argue it is better to leave…. But I’ll bow to more erudite input.
*I rarely understand much.
Daniel, it’s the opposite of an oxymoron.
Sorry… But I really may have to crack open the dictionary. Unless you can explain….
Hi Mary, isn’t that a rather snobbish/ elitist position you’re adopting? It’s a bit like the Python sketch of Clease, Barker and Corbet? You know the working class one?
Without doubt we have been satchurated with info, most of it from the remain and I’m disappointed to say that most of it ( from cameron & osbourne) is nothing but darn right lies, meanwhile I’ve tried to put party politics out of my decision and, after digesting all the wheat while throwing away the Chaff have come to the conclusion we have to leave.
Sorry Daniel.
Oxymora are two words that contradict each other used together E.g an honest politician. Many of them are in common usage such as bitter sweet, living dead.
A tautology is thus two words that mean the same thing such that one is superfluous ( not needed). Again a number of common phrases are actually tautologies such as the honest truth or a shining light.
Hope this helps.
Forgetting about grammar and the original question it seems pretty obvious that David Cameron and George Osborne are playing a double bluff. Pretend to support Remain but put forward such a ridiculous case to stay that it strengthens the Exit campaign. Once Exit wins they can then go to the European Union (Angela) and say “Look guys, we wanted to stay so give us an easy time”
Hey reductio, this is not egg heads !
A-ha!!! I get it, I get it! Silly me… Intelligent. Remain. Remain. Intelligent. Fnarr, Fnarr….
Right..lets see….. Off the top of my head…
People are unhappy about unelected people, who are unaccountable to “the people” making deep, important, and far reaching decisions that affect those people but not necessarily themselves. People don’t want the influx of people that these policies will of course lead to without any acknowledgment as to how the infrastructure and existing services are to cope. Vocalising concerns to this has you cast out for being a hysterical racist or nimbly or some phobic rather than genuinely concerned. And, despite how loudly you may shout your voice ultimately counts for nothing.
Does the above describe soomene who wants to leave the EU…Or someone who objects to houses being built?
Of course Daniel, drive down East Saint Helens st and the windows are full of remain posters ( cozy they talk with a plumb in their mouth, so they know better, cozy they’re superiori !
Geldof the multi-millionaire hollerin down a megaphone telling me what i should do…..and now slimeball-osbourne threatening me….well that’s made my mind up…thanks chaps!,
All so short sighted with this government changing the electoral boundaries it is unlikely we shall see an alternative government for decades. Do I trust the Tories with the health service No. Do I trust the Tories with employment laws and conditions, pay etc – No. Do I trust Boris – he’s a joke. Do I trust Gove – he made a mess of education, aNd as for Duncan Smith he has proved to be untrustworthy. My God these Brexit leaders are failures and people are believing what they say!!!!!! In this area with all the Joint European Scientific Projects / Programmes I say Vote Remain.
Can i ask you to indulge me Melissa, for my own interest; are you for or against the further houses in Abingdon?
Regardless of Brexit, these houses will have to be build. Switzerland, that is outside the EU, has the same rate of immigration as the UK. Switzerland has voted to reduce to introduce quotas on EU immigrants, however, the EU has so far refused to accept this and has threatened to annul any other agreements it has with Switzerland. Although the UK has greater economic power to negotiate a better deal, there is a risk that the French police will simply stop monitoring the border at Calais. After all, without a bilateral agreement, it just costing the French a lot of tax money that could be spent better otherwise.
OxfordMail, this just demonstrates that the EU is not a democratic organisation and uses bully boy tactics. It does not listen to E U voters at all and just does what the unelected officials want. Look at the Dutch referendum about the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement . The Dutch voted unanimously against it and the E U took no notice at all of the countries vote. It just shows that if we vote to remain we will not have any say in what the E U wants to do in this country
Having read everything that’s come through my door, and listened carefully to the politicians, I have come to the inevitable conclusion that the sky will fall down on Referendum Day + 1 whatever the result, and so plan to gather up the cats and sleep under the dining table. There may be space for one or two more if anyone cares to battle through the south Abingdon traffic. Better rescue the town’s hanging baskets too.
Janet, the UK has a veto in the EU. If we leave we lose that veto and will not be able to improve this organisation. Do we stay and fight or run away and hope for the best ?
Sarah, I wouldn’t worry too much. The initial impact of a Brexit will be minor. Initially the only thing you will notice is your holidays to the EU becoming more expensive as the pound will slide against the Euro, at least in the short term. However, it will be followed by two years of uncertainty while the new goverment is trying to negotiate a Brexit with the EU. In this period foreign investment in the UK will likely decrease as companies will hold off on investing. In these two years you will also find out that the pro-Brexit politicians simply can’t keep all their promises while negotiating with the EU. For example, those naughty fish do not tend to comply with UK border regulations, so some of the promises on new fishery policies may have to be watered down. And you can’t be involved in air strikes in Syria and not deal with any of the consequences (increase in refugees).It is also not unlikely there will be a second Scottish referendum with Scotland leaving this time hoping to rejoin the EU at some point.
Daniel, surely a person can be concerned about a lack of forward thinking on planning infrastructure like roads schools etc. while still thinking we should remain in the EU? Surely these concerns are not mutually exclusive? What about believing that all the brownfield sites should be explored before we look at the greenbelt how is that incompatible with wanting to be part of a wider trade and economic union? It strikes me that alot of the leave arguments are based on demonising others be they migrant workers, political refugees, ‘foreign’ bureaucrats or people who think there is a sound political and economic reason to stay in.
Has anyone picked up OCC planning to push the Park & Rides further outside the City Centre boundary. Has that been factored in to the Local Plan?
https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/cms/news/2016/jun/council-contemplates-idea-new-park-and-rides
I am really confused. OCC published a statement today saying that the plans have been made for the Park and ride sites outside Oxford in the Green belt. Whilst the Vale published a letter from the Planning inspector refusing any. development in the green belt if it was not for housing.
I have a feeling the Abingdon is going to be duped again. There is a proposed link to the A34 to take the traffic travelling south to avoid Abingdon centre but there is no guarantee that this will open before all the housing is being built so hundreds of more cars through Abingdon to get onto the A34 Southbound. Also there is no provision for social housing. Affordable housing is to be debated. There are over 1000 people in Oxford on the social housing list. If housing is to be built there should at least be some social housing included or does housing for the lower paid not apply?
Reductio:
“Daniel, surely a person can be concerned about a lack of forward thinking on planning infrastructure like roads schools etc. while still thinking we should remain in the EU?”
Yes, they surely can! Out of interest, do you mean locally…or nationally? The same thought ‘locally’ is OK it seems, but further afield…you are a racist? How odd.
“What about believing that all the brownfield sites should be explored before we look at the greenbelt how is that incompatible with wanting to be part of a wider trade and economic union?”
It isn’t. I think there’s been a misunderinterpretation here.
“It strikes me that a lot of the leave arguments are based on demonising others be they migrant workers, political refugees, ‘foreign’ bureaucrats or people who think there is a sound political and economic reason to stay in.”
Not the arguments I am using to base my decision. I like the way you use the word “foreign”. It has a conveniently racist connotation to it. “Grrr, foreign…grrr….racist….grrrr…leave Europe….Grrr Brexit = racist…grrrr”, ask questions….grrrr….ignore the answers….grrrr…”
I have heard lots of “demonising” from the remain side too. Both sides are equally poor with such activity – shame on them both.
There is ‘sound political and economic belief’ for leave as well as for stay. The Stay camp does not have a monopoly on “belief”.
I am not making my decision based on anyone’s ‘beliefs’….
Nameless faceless unelected and unaccountable people seems to aggrieve people on the one hand (local planning), but is perfectly acceptable on the other (EU). Doesn’t make sense.
Janet, you are right, you’re confused,
The housing on the green belt on the north of Abingdon is going to be for all the new ‘science’ jobs that are going to happen in the Vale.
They are going to cycle to their new jobs, so there wont be any additional traffic.
And they are going to be very healthy and have no children, so we wont need any new doctors surgeries, dentists, or schools.
It was all there in the local plan, or Abingdon-Vale agreement as Mr Chamberlain might have called it.
Being on a river is quite appropriate really, as once again the Vale has sold us down it.
Having sat through 3 days of the Local Plan enquiry I might be able to answer some of the questions raised above:
– the Local Plan does include a primary school on one of the new estates – also some sports/play areas adjacent to Peachcroft Farm.
– there is also provision for another large building adjacent to the school, which could be a health centre, community centre or whatever is needed.
– the new slip-roads at Lodge Hill are provided for but are unlikely to be built until well into the 2020s I.e after at least half of the houses.
– the Park and Ride/Lorry Park proposals come from the County Council not the Vale so the Inspector was not asked to rule on them. That fight is still to be fought…
– the Vale have been asked to conduct a review of brownfield site availability – I can’t remember when it is due, later in the summer I think, but I will be watching out for it..
– once the Local Plan is in place speculative developers will not easily be able to grab land wherever they want as has been the case for the last few years (including Drayton Road) – although I do see that the Vale are also looking for offers of more sites to build on so all is not quite rosy!
– what we all need to try to work on over the next few years is making sure that a) the infrastructure is put in place and b) the right sort (small, affordable) houses are built.
Check out the prices at Morland Gardens, to understand how far things have to change to get affordable priced housing in this area.
Hester is spot on.
Setting the Green Belt issue to one side, the other big problem with this sort of development is that it produces some money towards schools, health, community and transport facilities but never enough to properly fund all of them.
I cannot believe the naivety of some Abingdon people. I was told that we needed all these houses as we have lots of homeless. We are supposed to be building ‘affordable homes. As Dave pointed out the houses at Morland gardens are £395,000 – £560,000. I want to know if more social housing is being planned. It has been reported that someone has converted a shed in South Abingdon and has 8 immigrants living in it. This is the vision of the UK. Shedland and poor slum accommodation for the poor.
Well, we absolutely don’t want any cooling of the housing market, so this is simply the price houses are.. Unfortunate, but the way we want it to be.
Apparently..IF we come out of the EU, then house prices will plummet… (That was the Inny’s, stating it as a BAD thing…but surely that would be a GOOD thing?)
Janet
The point is that Morland Gardens was a speculative development which had one sole motive I.e profit for the developers. While I am not naive enough to believe that all will be rosy with the new developments, they are being done to contribute towards meeting the assessed local housing need so there will be more control over the size and type of houses. The Strategic Housing Market Assessment included detailed analysis of what was needed – we need to make sure that this is adhered to.
We (the community) would have a lot more input in to all of this if we had a Neighbourhood Plan – although it can’t contradict the local plan it can lay down binding ground rules for the nature of the developments. It would also give the Town Council control over a much larger share of the infrastructure money which Neil refers to. Sadly, the ruling group on the TC can’t see the value in doing this.
I have followed qwith interest the comments on both the Local Plan and the EU referendum, which seem to have become inextricably entangled. With a few honourable exceptions, the standard of debate has been appalling. The amount of venomous hatred of others – refugees, Turks, Syrians, in fact almost anyone ‘foreign’ – that has poured forth is frightening. Both the EU referendum and the Local Plan are important matters that need far more reasoned debate and consideration than has been demonstrated on this blog to date.
Where is the report, Janet? Who made it? Has it been referred to those responsible for monitoring this sort of abuse? What action have you taken to make sure that this report is brought to the town council?
If what you report about eight immigrants in a shed is true, it is surely too important to be left as a rant on a blog.
Ppjs, there is a defunct yacht moored along Wilsham road who’s polish owner rents to immigrants, it has no power, no running water, no engine and no toilet , they ore and poo in the river, in January there was a young Bulgarian couple with a 2 year old child living on it in minus 8 ! They got housed, now there’s a pole living on it waiting to be housed.
Janet is perfectly correct in what she says, I know the house, apart from about 8 or 9 living in the house the outbuilding (which had planning for conversion to an office) had another 5 or 6 living in it, our postman also speaks of a flat near by that houses 8, there is a flat overlooking the market place that has 20 immigrants registered as living there,
Last year I rented a one bed apartment to a Nigerian who then sub let it to 6 others, guess what, when I eventually elected them sovereign housing gave them a brand new 3 bedroom council house in cumnor !
Thank you.
It is dreadful that people are so desperate, don’t you think? As to those to whom your Nigerian tenant sub-let, what kind of accommodation ought we to offer? Tents?
Ppjs, with respect, you’re missing the point, why should we offer anything when clearly we cannot house our own? And had been already said here all the new housing were being swamped with won’t solve the problem, it’s all high end stuff, you jest about tents? I know a single mom and her two children living in a tent in her parents back garden right here in abingdon. Another point for you to ponder on is this, every time an immigrant presents themselves to your doctors surgery ( and that’s st least once a week) they hand over a card given to them by immigration ( or police if they’re illegal) which entitles them to an interperator, the interperator charges your g p surgery upto £300 a visit and that comes straight out of your G P’s budget, so next time there’s an outcry because a doctor doesn’t have the funds to prescribe a life changing drug to someone you’ll know why?
I wasn’t aware that Nigeria had joined the EU
What you talking about Pike ?
At last!!!! The first, actual, true fact of the whole Eeeewwwwww debate.; Nigeria is not part of the Eeeewwwwww.
So captain, if as you state each Immigrant visits their GP every week and that visit costs £300 simple arithmetic says each Immigrant costs 52x£300 each year. A total of £15600. Given that the total spend by the NHS on interpreters was £33 million (2015 figures for all interpretation services including the translation of documents) that means there are less than 2,500 immigrants in the country.
Read your own posts back Captain – and lay of the insults
Indeed reductio and well done with the maths, yes 2500 immigrants per year are using £33million of the NHS budget on interpreters, and that’s just the ones who don’t speak English !
Pike, if you can’t take it, don’t throw it !
Oh, that also equates to 3000 hip replacements too !
You seem to have some imagined view of the world captain – you really are incapable of any sort of rational argument.
You can call me whatever you like but dont expect me to take your little England, in fact, little Abingdon, xenophobia seriously.
I am sorry that the idea persists that we cannot look after others as well as ourselves.
My comment about tents was not a joke. Tents are often sent out to to survivors after major disaster – by which time, of course, the survivors have already provided themselves with much better temporary accommodation. What they require is aid of a far more serious kind. They are not victims; they are survivors.
Many Nigerians have suffered severe persecution in their own country and have fled as asylum seekers. We have an absolute humanitarian obligation to help them. That’s why successive governments (of all political persuasions) have led the UK in keeping the international agreements on these matters.
If we only help those we approve of, heaven help us when we get stuck in the proverbial. We may discover that nobody particularly wants to come to our help.
Oh Captain thank-you for your kind words and presumably agreement with my mathematics but it does leave me a little confused.
In 2014 the Telegraph reported that there were 800000 people living in Britain with little or no English. What on earth has happened to the other 797500 in the intervening period? Assuming they have not vanished, surely that means that you made an error in your initial assertion? Perhaps you could check and confirm that immigrants do in fact visit their GP at least weekly and that when they do they make use of an interpreter at a cost of upto £300? Perhaps they actually only visit their GP once every 6 years (making them exceptionally healthy) or the cost of the use of an interpreter for a visit is actually closer to £1 making it rather a badly paid occupation?
PPJS And when exactly DO these other’s come to our aid? Was it when thousands of people were flooded out of their homes? I didn’t hear of any humanitarian efforts set up by our “Friends” abroad for any of that? Or was it one of the recessions maybe, that meant that people were losing their homes and jobs…ok not dying, but pretty miserable for those concerned? Or maybe it was to help out with the thousands of food banks that we now have in this country to allow people to EAT?
I am all for charity, and have done a lot of charity work in the past…but I firmly believe that charity begins at home…you look after your own first, and then, and ONLY then, can you afford to look further afield.
Let’s face it, the European’s hate us…you only have to watch the Eurovision song contest to see that!!!
What a load of drivel – maybe you’d prefer to ‘build a wall’!
Just to pick up your first point on flooding. The following is a short extract from a comprehensive EU blog on the support they give the UK for flooding:
Considerable EU regional funding is available for flood defence and prevention. UK regions are due to receive nearly EUR 2bn during the 2014-2020 financial period for “climate change adaptation and risk prevention“. One of the key risks is flooding, though the detailed allocation of this funding is a matter for the UK. A recent example of the use of EU funding for flood defence is the Alkborough Flats managed realignment scheme in Lincolnshire, which received over £2m in EU regional and environment funding
EU funding….so in essence, some of the money that we’d already paid in… Did ypu hear of the French, or Germans having a whip round for us? What makes you think I’d want to build a wall? Did i say that?? As usual Iain, with your usual sanctimonious drivel and holier than thou attitude you choose to pick up on one thing and ignore or make up the rest…. If you read my post you’ll see that i said i have done a lot of work for charity…. But i am also a realist..and when we are being told that there is a shortage of housing/schools/ doctors and our wonderful envy-of-the-world nhs is going to hell in a handcart, then it is absolutely ludicrous to invite 100’s of thousands more in! I care for my children’s and future grandchildren’s futures even if you don’t!
it’s difficult to respond to every rant that you include in your posts. I could have added that the EU also offered (I think it was turned down) funding for food banks in 2013.
You also talk about the impact of recession – frankly we’re far more likely to have another recession if we leave the EU.
You talk about the shortage of the NHS – how will that be affected by the 10% of our doctors that come from the EU. Or the 4% of our nurses.
I, like most people, care about the future, and believe it or not I have no more desire to see poverty and hardship in this country than you do. i just profoundly disagree with you that leaving the EU will make things better – I think it would make it worse.
… Just coming at this (again) from the sidelines… But there’s an intimation from the above, that if we leave then 10% of all our doctors and 4% of our nurses will suddenly leave.
Why will leaving the EU mean that people who are working here….. won’t be able to work here? It doesn’t make any sense….
And, just to throw a remain argument back over the fence… Should we stay; and the economy turns to @#@# what’s the back up plan. The plan B? More cuts? Increased taxes?
Daniel – if you vote to leave the EU then Eu nationals will lose their right to work in the UK. The government may choose to give them back that right but that will mean immigration won’t go down. Look at what’s happened in Australia. You can’t have it both ways.
On your economic point – why would staying create a recession? We’d be the same as today except we wouldn’t have markets and big businesses which are spooked
Charity is not about getting a return on investment; it’s about giving to those who are in even greater need than I am.
It’s only fair to correct inaccuracies and misconceptions from those whose overall all opinions on the matter I support so, Iain, it is highly unlikely that UK nationals living in the EU will be required to return to the UK for two reasons.
The EU expressly forbids the ‘collective expulsion of aliens’ and the 1969 Vienna convention protects the position of those who gained rights from a treaty that is subsequently revoked (which also applies to those from the EU currently in the UK.and arguably to those who currently have the right to live and work in the UK but have chosen not to make use of that right.yet.).
Fair point reductio my point was too simplistically expressed. I agree with your point and personally I don’t think any government will actually remove the right to work, my point is by extension i believe government is unlikely to make a material impact on immigration rates if it doesn’t take on these sort of difficult issues.
Presumably the EU convention wouldn’t apply if we vote to leave. Your point on the Vienna convention is interesting – does that mean people in say France who currently have the right to work in the UK will retain that right even if we leave the EU as it is an existing right?
Reductio puts some meat on them bones, thanks Reductio, very interesting.
Before that, I was thinking…. Why would the Government send home lots of people that the country clearly needs? I guess they *might*. I guess they *might* paint all the roads pink? It still makes no sense, to me, as an argument… and it seems that the facts bear out that nonsensicalness.
With regards the economy…. I haven’t heard the remain side offer the *absolute gaurantees* and cast iron promises that there will be ZERO economic negativity going forwards should we stay. No one will lose a job. Wages will stay as they are etc etc. Basically the exact same as Ruth Davidson and others bang on about last night, demanding such crystal ball clarity from the leave camp. She/they equally can’t offer any such promise or hope if we stay. Again another nonsensical ‘point’.
If we do leave, and the self fulfilling prophecies all come true… Are we still talking about a fraction of 1% as a recession? So, in effect a theoretical recession rather than a physical one? Scary word’ recession ‘”, let’s be careful how it is used….
For me leaving the EU is not just about business , it’s a far wider subject than that? If we leave no longer will the Supreme Court in Luxembourg decide who we can or cannot deport, rapists, murderes, hardened criminals, we have no sovereign decision making anymore,
Immigration? We will be in control of our own boarders, WE would be able to set our own quota, as for commonwealth countries like OZ. they can be issued with commonwealth visas which would allow travel,
Business? Just Branson issued a lop sided remain statement from his private island in the Caribbean James Dyson along with Astom Martin argued we will be better off out, free to chose where they trade and of course free of EU red tape
Food? It’s all subject to EU rules, rules that dictate as long as a product is “finished” in the UK it can carry produce of U K and carry the union flag, in reality it means we bring in tons of prepared chickens from Brazil ( where we have no control over farming practises) but as long as they are packed for sale here they can be called “British” I read this practise is now being exploited by wine producers? Bringing in grapes on the vine from wherever in the world if suites, process them here they are then labled English”
We are the fifth biggest economy in the world, we can and should stand on our own, making our own way in the world.
Talk to the Cornish fishermen who because of EU regulation they are confined to port while watching the French fish their/our waters, the common agricultural policy has ruined our farming industry,, pig farmers, milk producers are stifled with red EY tape while part of the £350 million we pay the EU each week supports a polish farmer to send his milk, by road to the UK,
Dave says, nay admits the EU needs reform and that can happen if we remain? Surely those reforms should have been carried out before we decide on in or out? It’s a nonsense to say vote in and I’ll sort it, the other 27!countries won’t allow it !
Gents…i think you are missing the point here… I have nothing whatsoever against those that are already here and working… What i do fear is WHEN Turkey is allowed to join the EU..and don’t tell me you actually believe dodgy Daves spiel that they won’t be allowed too, pulleease! (This from the man that has once again been proven to have lied to the electorate over immigration numbers!) They will demand to be allowed in or else they will turn refugees away….and the EU is scared to death of that happening!
As for the claptrap about immigrants having to be here for 4 years without any benefits..do you really think that will happen?? Will we allow children to come here without a roof over their heads and allow them to starve to death on the streets? No..of course not..so it is another false promise.
On the subject of charity..Iain…it makes me sick that people advocate sending money abroad…(only for selected countries though mind you!), just to salve their consciences and make themselves look and feel good! IF you are so charitable, go into Oxford of an evening…and collect up the homeless and hungry..give them a roof over their heads in your nice house? Doesn’t matter if you haven’t got a spare bedroom I’m sure a dry floor or sofa will be better that they will have tonight…but no…you wouldn’t want that…far easier to just chuck a bit of money abroad,…
Oh and how many years ago was it geldof (the multi-millionaire, was shouting out us to “give us ya f****g money!”…yet they are still showing adverts that show children drinking filthy water…and begging for more money… So where did all those millions of pounds go?
To reiterate previous posts it’s great that we have a good record on foreign aid – it’s a shame it makes you sick,
Of course this has nothing to do with our membership or otherwise of the EU
Good points as ever Ian 🙂 With regard to the Vienna convention, I’m no legal expert but given the wording it’s entirely possible that someone ( and remember here we are potentially talking about entire countries or the EU not individuals) could argue that the original treaty that allowed them the right to live and work here cannot remove that right (even if they have chosen not to exercise it yet) when that treaty is revoked. It’s important here to distinguish between a treaty and a trade agreement. Trade agreements can be ‘unagreed’ with no retrospective rights remaining. Thus there is a possible scenario where freedom to work and live remains and trade tariffs are introduced. It’s difficult to argue like this because personally I think the freedom of movement of workers is one of the best things about the EU so keeping that is a ‘good thing’. What I would hate to see is a load of people voting to leave in the mistaken impression that it will prevent migration only to wake up on Friday morning to discover that despite the referendum going their way, they haven’t got what they wanted and in the process f*cked it all up for the rest of us. As for Turkey, it’s a strange colonial throwback that sees huge numbers of people happy to be ‘served’ by Turkish people on a Turkish holiday but so vehemently against accepting them as equals in any other context.
Completely agree
It’s interesting to consider the stars that would have to align for a new immigration policy to take force even after a leave vote
1. The government would need to agree to a new policy (say the Australian points system)
2. Realistically this would mean Cameron resigning or being ousted
3. His replacement would then need to support the new policy – remember c2/3 of Tory MPs support remain
4. The government would need to take the decision that ending free movement was a non-negotiable in their trade renegotiations with the EU which would likely reduce the terms we could negotiate with the EU
5. The government would have to get the legislation through parliament and remember the opposition parties pretty much all oppose this
6. The policy would have to actually reduce immigration and remember in Australia it has had the effect of increasing immigration
7. None of the above deals with illegal immigration, which to my mind is more of a concern as these people are forced to work in the grey economy. Dealing with illegal immigration is not restricted by being in the EU
I guess people can draw their own opinions on their confidence in these events all occurring – I am sceptical
See, once again, you have got it wrong…I love Turkey, have been there three times, and I love the Turkish people. What I don’t want is them, or anyone else for that matter, coming here in their hundreds of thousands when as a nation we are already FULL!!!
Which bit of green-belt are we going to build on to house them all? Instead of waiting a week or two to see a Dr, will it be a month or two? Who decides which children will go to school and which won’t…. Where will all jobs magically appear from?
You really don’t get it do you….you cannot fit a gallon in a pint pot…no matter which way you try or how much you want too…
I don’t know how government policy works, and have no crystal ball to say with any confidence what stars must align in order for some uncertainties to become certain and for those uncertainties, with all their nuance and permutations to add up to a known specific…. But I do think the ‘issue’, for me at least, is conveniently sidelined, still.
The rational, non sensationalist discussion surrounding immigration etc are not necessarily about reducing numbers. It is about the ability to hose what we need. It is fine from my point if an Australian system means we get more people. What’s important here is that that is what we, the people have chosen.
The referendum is, for me, a decision about whether we want to our decision making back. I do. And it’s that some.
Everything else- the economy, immigration, trade, recession, it is all hearsay…. Your unknowns are as equal as our unknowns. Your guarantees are as week or indeed as lacking as our guarantees.
My decision is simple. Do I want people who are unelected and unaccountable to the British people making decisions that affect the British people? I take issue with that as vehemently as I do when it comes to local housing decisions. That… and TTIP.
2 good enough reasons to leave.
So Guido, if we accept your premise that the country is ‘already full’ what’s the next step? Limiting the number of children people are allowed? Something more extreme?
It strikes me that it’s you and those like you that just don’t get it. Leaving the EU is unlikely to have any impact on the number of people in the country. We can’t ( and shouldn’t) ‘evict’ those that are already here as it is simultaneously morally reprehensible, economically unsound and contravenes international law. Once we start negotiating a trade deal it is inconceivable that we will get a better deal than other countries have currently negotiated and we will thus end up with less control over our borders than we currently have and no veto (should they ever fulfil the outstanding 34/35ths of the requirements to apply for membership and we choose to apply it) on Turkey joining. Voting to leave will not achieve what you want, quite possibly the opposite, and it certainly won’t achieve what I want.
Reductio ad absurdum…the next step for anyone with half an ounce of common sense, surely is not to allow (Or be FORCED to allow), hundreds of thousands more in…. Please READ what I say…I am NOT advocating throwing ANYONE out…purely having the CHOICE as to how many and WHO we allow in…not to be TOLD by some unelected nobody that we WILL take as many as THEY want us to have. If we haven’t got enough housing now…how can we accommodate hundreds of thousands more???
I do understand what you’re saying Guido, so there really is no need to shout. I just don’t think that leaving the EU will have the effect that you want and expect it to so I wondered if you had a plan b?
As far as unelected people making decisions that affect you being fixed by leaving the EU I would suggest that your spectacles are so incredibly rose tinted it’s a miracle that they aren’t in bloom! Here’s a short list, some or all of which will apply to you
The entire House of Lords
The Governor of the bank of England
The County Solicitor who advises the local planning committee.
Head of MI5
Head of MI6
Head of the Civil Aviation Authority
The person you work for (or your customers / clients if self employed)
Your next-door neighbours
I could go on but suffice to say that the idea that leaving the EU suddenly somehow makes us free from unelected people having control over our lives is as ridiculous as the idea that leaving the EU will suddenly somehow mean everyone has a house to live in, a school to go to and an NHS doctor on call 24/7.
So it is ridiculous to expect to have a house to live in…or a school to go to? You really are wanting us to become a 3rd world nation…still, if it carries on the way it is going then I would think that none of the immigrants will WANT to come and live here,….problem solved, hey?
(Btw, I wasn’t shouting, you have to use your voice for that…I was merely highlighting some words. ..hardly “shouting”?)
All I am saying is that if we leave, we can have control of our borders again (as far as I know, none of the above in your list, controls those, my next door neighbours certainly don’t), although potentially the head of MI5/6 could….except at this moment in time they COULD also be overruled by some idiot in Brussels.
There really is no point in me saying that I nowhere said it was ridiculous to expect a house to live in or a school to go to or to further state that I believe somewhere safe to live and a place to learn are something I aspire to for everyone, not just the British. So for me, it’s time to graciously withdraw.
I think it was my point, regarding Unelected making good decisions.
What’s the plan B if we remain out of interest? Or are the remain promises and remain guarantees better promises and better guarantees than everyone else’s?
Why people can’t think in simple, plain numbers … just the sheer weight people that has nothing to do with race, nationality, religion, etc, etc and not conflate it with racism I don’t know. But, then again, that wouldn’t serve the Remain cause.
Remember … vote early and vote often.